p.enthalabs

Microduck

pollen-robotics.com · Read Story HN original

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Cute, and quite something if the sim-to-real pipeline is as smooth as we all might hope.
What is the battery life?
And can it walk back to a charge station and hook itself up?
Add a hack to repurpose a phone wireless charger pad?
My main question is if it would be able to find its way back.
The biggest idea of this device seems to be that people would be able to write software to it, so this seems very likely to be in the domain of achievable things, because it has a camera and LIDAR.
You can train it to do pretty much anything.
You can train deep learning to do anything. But the question is ... will it do it? And the next question: how reliably?
1 hour according to the spec sheet. Would be nice if it knew battery was running out and "sat" on a wireless charger by itself.
Since it's programmable, I guess one could tinker with it to do just that?
My wife would love one of these.

She's still bitter we didn't get the Sony dog a decade ago.

I remember it being the 90s :) the first generation AIBO was discontinued TWO decades ago.

(it does look like subsequent models were launched about a decade ago)

Yep. I was at a dotcom (ZEFER) back then and we owned an OG AIBO robot for the office. This was 1999 I'm pretty sure.
Yup, you can still get one, as long as you're happy to pay 3k usd plus the 300 yearly cloud subscription...
AI is coming for pet market too.
AI is taking all the fun jobs. Now also for pets.
Don't believe that all pet animals are having a great life.

Many people with a dog don't get that as a pack animal it's cruel to leave it alone indoors all day, they overfeed them and keep them alive well beyond the stage where some hip/back/joint pain issues would keep it in constant pain. Cats are the opposite, people get them "a companion" so it doesn't feel "alone", yet in reality, in addition to also being way overfed, there is now constant warfare in the house cause cats (that are not directly blood related) actually hate each other, another word for being territorial. "Oh look how cute they are playing with each other, chasing through the house!" Yeah no, it's Hunger Games day in day out. Other species don't fare better, from turtles living in their own s*it to birds who never can fly. We are very cruel to our pets, often too ignorant to notice, with exceptions being much too rare.

I welcome those pets being replaced by robots.

Naw bro. These pets are domesticated. They are evolving via natural selection to be suited for living in houses, they already pretty much can’t live in the wild.

Also the dog would rather be alive than not alive at all and which is what will happen if you replace it with AI. You don’t shoot an old person just because he has hip pain.

> These pets are domesticated.

Undoubtedly true.

> They are evolving via natural selection to be suited for living in houses, they already pretty much can’t live in the wild.

Ok? What you say can be true, and at the same time many pets can suffer too. Unsuitable housing, neglectfull or worse owners, bad circumstances. Evolution doesn’t guarantee happiness of individuals.

> the dog would rather be alive than not alive at all

That is a deep philosophical question. I have my doubts. But if it is true, why are you not breeding dogs at an industrial scale? After all every dog who could have been born but wasnt would be rather alive, if i hear you correctly. That is millions of potential dogs not born who you could have bread during your lifetime if you were more efficient about it.

> You don’t shoot an old person just because he has hip pain.

That is a great reason for not putting down old Fido and replacing him with a robot dog. I wouldn’t recommend that.

On the other hand if we just breed less dogs, and get robot pets to the people who are circumstantially, habitually, or emotionally less suited to have a living one. That way they can fulfill their emotional need without torturing a living animal.

> Naw bro. These pets are domesticated. They are evolving via natural selection to be suited for living in houses, they already pretty much can’t live in the wild

Natural selection has little to do with how pets are bred. The criteria their genes are being selected for by breeders have nothing to do with optimizing their happiness and more with what maximizes profit (which only losely relates to owner happiness).

Incidentally, lots of domesticated cats could survive in the wild just fine, just like lots of somewhat functional dog breeds. But that has nothing to do with whether the conditions keep them in are still painful to them.

Most humans can't survive in the wild. Put any of them in solitary confinement and you will see how much natural selection has done for them. We are social animals, just like dogs.

> You don’t shoot an old person just because he has hip pain.

No, because it is a human that has human rights. Which include the right to live. (Arguably they should have the right to decide the end of their life too, but religios groups are still having a strong grip on laws about that.) Animals don't. A friend of mine is a vet for farm animals and she always gets angry about how people treat their suffering pets. Cow has a painful broken leg? Bolt through brain, suffering ends immediately. Same with similarly injured sheep, goats, etc. No point in letting them suffer unnecessarily. Already horses are special because people get attached and sometimes they are worth tons of money so people rather pump them full with antibiotics. But dogs and cats? Man, people attach wheels to the lower end of dogs so they can keep their beloved buddy for another 2 years, even though that poor thing can't even go for a pee anymore. You can see owners drag their terminally ill dog through the streets which has clearly lost all will to live. We let pets suffer much more than cows or goats and it's cuel.

As an avid dog owner I ensure my pets have a rich home life. However, at this point in my life I've seen countless pet owners callously fall short of providing even basic pet needs: walks, enrichment activities, etc. (I've fostered and adopted multiple rescue dogs)

I welcome a humane substitute for those without the time or understanding to properly care for another living creature. Mostly people should not be allowed to have a living pet.

This "with emotions like a living creature" should just not be allowed.
why not?
Because it’s a lie. And is pushing for even worse sycophantic products

> Emotional AI Support, Powered by Intelligence

Targeting emotionally vulnerable people with AI promises is pretty disgusting

Years ago I worked with developmentally disabled people, that absolutely loved animals but could never be left alone with one much less own one. This kind of product would have brought so much joy to those people.
I don’t deny there is a market for it
I think it's distasteful to screen ethically questionable business practices with segments of the disabled community. If this product was being marketed towards the need of developmentally disabled individuals I feel like there would be less grounds for criticism, however meeting those needs in no way excuses outright fabrication of marketing claims aimed at the broader consumer market, and especially children.
You find something you made up distasteful? Get a grip. Its just a Furby.
Honestly I feel that way for the whole AI friend industry that is developing, from AI boyfriends and girlfriends to just kind of AI 'friends'. But this sort of thing is a sort of robot pet and I think the dynamics are different. Some one replacing a robot cat with a cat is not an evil thing in the way that trying to substitute human relationships are.
I agree, just don’t lie about it. You can present it as a cute little robot pet without problems. No need to say “it expresses and feels emotions like a real cat”. The AI industry has normalized lying about your products to a whole new level, that shouldn’t be acceptable
Looking through the advertising.

> Through communication, Moflin’s emotional state changes. Your robot companion can show joy, sadness, and happiness, reacting just like a living creature would. Moflin does not possess actual emotions like humans do. Their emotional expressions are simulated by AI. And lots of bits of the advert seems to be explain how it's not real in the QA and that everything is a simulation.

I have not used the product, but nothing strikes me as dishonest about the advertising.

> Your robot companion can show joy, sadness, and happiness, reacting just like a living creature would.

Seems like a lie to me. Compare:

> Our synthetic foodstuffs can taste sweet, salty, tart or tangy, delicious flavors just like natural ingredients.

(But then it's all aspartame, etc.)

I guess we are really debating the semantics of the sentences now like lawyers but to me the verb show is not particularly difficult to achieve or ambitious or misleading to use in this sort of product. A toy with a that has a smiley face and a frowning face is capable of showing two different emotions.

Your second one point also does not seem like a lie to me since it's claiming to emulate natural ingredient (although here I guess to be just like means to emulate perfectly).

I don't really see why any one would look at the product and it's marketing as evil. It seems to me aimed at people who can not have pets and are want to create a simulation of a soothing positive interaction with a pet. I don't see this as exploitative (apart from it's exploiting a desire that people have in the same way that virtually all products do), I can not see someone forming a relationship with this to the detriment of human interaction or exacerbate some kind of mental illness or cause addiction. It does seem a little expensive and that would be my only criticism of the product so far as I can see.

I don’t know what you are on about. Can the robot exhibit signs of the emotions described? If it can then the sentence is not a lie. If it can’t then it is a lie. Are you saying that it won’t do what the sentence says?

The sentence is not saying “it is a living creature”. It says it behaves as one. How much of that sentence is a lie obviously depends on how well the robot works.

i bought one about a year ago and used it for 20 days or so. Then I realised casio offered a full money back return for 30 days. And sorry little moflin your emotions were not real enough for me to want to keep you vs get $400 back.
They do look cute, but $400 is steep.
it wears off quick.
How about “this duck fakes positive emotions like we all do from time to time”
Plato thought writing was a lie:

> If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written...And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only its semblance, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much, while for the most part they know nothing, and as men filled, not with wisdom, but with the conceit of wisdom, they will be a burden to their fellows.

Basically, reading writing (without instruction) will only make people seem like they know stuff, by parroting others, when in fact, they know not much of anything.

> Plato thought writing was a lie

Which is an intriguing argument considering he .. wrote it down and not just once. He was a prolific author. He also speaks _through_ other people, mostly Socrates, which complicates matters quite a bit. You're getting a narrative as told by someone inside the narrative about the nature of narration itself.

I'd be hesitant to linearize Plato. There's quite a bit of subtlety to his arguments.

That said, I understand the sentiment. Just want to introduce some nuance into the statement. I'd hate it if people thought Plato could just be pinned down like that.

Its not even close to being the same product.
Finally an AI slop I can keep as a pet. I hate this dystopia.
It's a different target market I guess. I welcome innovation like this - it's possibly tackling the loneliness epidemic in however small ways.
its a cool toy, not a friend. The only way you "bond" with plastic is with some ScotchWeld.
I find it terrifying
The reason some people fine Moflin terriying is due to differences between the Western and Eastern face reading.

In Western cultures, "mouth" is how one perceives emotions, while in the Eastern cultures, it's the eyes.

e.g.

You see Disney characters got all big mouths, while say, Japanese ones like in anime or Hello Kitty has small or no mouth but BIG eyes.

Same for Microduck. It's got gigantic mouth, while Moflin has none.

---

As a personal preference, I like anime/manga characters but not fond of disney characters nor other Pixar characters. they look terrible to me.

“I have no mouth but I must scream” is a Harlan Ellison story about an AI that tortures humans for revenge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_No_Mouth,_and_I_Must_Sc...

I suppose Moflin is preemptive revenge against that scenario. “How do you like them apples, future torturing AI?”

Black Mirror vibes
This actually seems awesome, just going through the video on their site made me burst out with 100 different ways in which I would tinker with it, spend time in learning different gaits, some RL or some tricks to have it jump or do a back flip

I can see some parallel between how arduino gave hobbyist a mini computer they can use in any way imaginable, I can see this kind of thing being used to solve unimaginable problems by hobbyist or RL computer scientist or heck any UG student with claude subscription

This looks really cool! The cuteness of the demo alone makes me want one. Ideally I would also love for it to have a real use case in my home but right now I really cant think of one.
for microduck I didn't find but their older reachy_miny was Apache 2.0 and hardware design files as Creative Commons BY-SA-NC
Because now you're locked into the Rust ecosystem.

JSONRPC over Unix sockets is a better interface for language agnostic IPC.

How does a cross language IPC library being written in Rust lock you into the Rust ecosystem if you can use it in C++ and other programming languages listed here https://github.com/eclipse-iceoryx/iceoryx2#language-binding....

You have to engage in a significant amount of motivated reasoning to believe that.

Yeah but not any language.

JSONRPC can be trivially implemented in any language which can read/write a Unix socket. Which is any language worth using.

It's the trade off for performance and accessibility.

iceoryx2 maintainer here. Of course everybody has different requirements when it comes to IPC and if a rich set of supported languages is the highest priority, then protocols like JSONRPC are a good option. But using such protocols for local IPC also has downsides, especially when the amount of data increases and the available resources are limited. This is where iceoryx2 has its strengths by utilizing shared memory for communication. We also split up the data flow from the control flow and one could send data to other processes without a context switch, in a way similar to what io_uring is doing. There is an upcoming blog post where we describe the possibilities shared memory enables compared to using sockets. I'll post it here once it is published.

Like another poster already commented, while iceoryx2 is implemented in Rust, it already support other languages, like C, C++, C# and Python. We'd love to add even more languages to the list, with Go being on top of our wishlist, but like always with OSS, someone needs to do the work or needs to step up and fund the work.

Yeah, I know the benefits. There isn't a lot of data transferred though. The GitHub repo for this robot has design decisions on it so you can read their reasoning for themselves.

At the end of the day, it's an open source robot so someone can implement these protocols if they see the reason to.

That is sick
I'm wanna train some to chase after turtles.
Ugh, PAL only? I'll wait for the NTSC version.
It's either this or https://mondorobotics.com/ and I'm torn. Obviously it's for my daughter and I will just be safety checking, definitely, 100%.
Will Beni/monodorobotics have open source software, or at least a hackable stack?
Hey we're on HN where __anything__ is hackable :)

(Except iDevices of course)

I believe the Microduck camera footage (the ad - reel) about 1000x more than the Mondo one.
For what it’s worth the mondo team has been posting development log videos on Reddit since before they incorporated. They raised money so they now have ads with more production value, but they came from small beginnings and I do trust their product.
It's funny how he also mentioned it looked like a scam from the promotional material.
The mondo beni bot was featured on mkbhd recently looked to work pretty well and got a positive review, for what's that's worth [0]

[0] - https://youtu.be/mfmdXPT7nAM

That's a completely different class of robot. The Beni robot is just a toy, it's just connect the app and drive it around, record videos and do some fancy tricks like flips. It is not meant to be a platform you program yourself.

The Microduck is meant to be a hacker toy. Train it yourself, write software, hack it, etc.

It depends what you're trying to get for your daughter. Is it something to get her into robotics? Then probably the Microduck is the way. If it's literally just a toy, then the Beni robot is better because that's literally all it is.

yes to both :)
The creators of Beni seem to have promised that the platform will be open (including sim2real parts of Beni).

I have ordered Beni for my family. It's sturdy and more practical for careless fun.

I'm an early backer and plan on jailbreaking Beni ASAP. Seems like really, really cool hardware.

With Unitree bots all but banned in the US I've been looking to pivot away from that platform anyway. Took a couple months to jailbreak the Go2 platform initially, but I'm betting this will go even faster with modern agents

I would describe the Microduck as more of a toy than Beni. Autonomous cameraman is a real application that Beni performs out of the box. I think you'll struggle to get Microduck to do anything genuinely useful.
IMO with that definition of "toy" you're overselling the value of performing useful work and underselling the value of farting about.
> Train it yourself, write software, hack it, etc.

it seems like the only useful capability this thing has is picking up very small items of clothing with I imagine a very low success rate.

MKBHD covered Beni the other day and it looks like a super super fun toy. Not sure about the educational value, but I was thinking about getting one for the kid in my life (me). https://youtu.be/mfmdXPT7nAM?t=592 (9:52)
My favorite bit from that was when he had it do a flip and the battery ejected from it's niche and it died. Also the constant suicide attempts from trying to run it on a table but that's a problem for any mobile robot and tabletop demos.
As a kick-starter project is this thing actually real? My experience with kick-starter has been that the projects are almost universally faked.
totally, it's on MKBKD video posted in other comments. I watched it last week and hence why I'm split
As a kick-starter project is this thing actually real? My experience with kick-starter has been that the projects are almost universally faked.

I've only contributed to three kickstarters, and they all worked out well. But I think I'm more selective than most people, and generally don't jump on something until it's already been fully funded by other people.

I got this for my kids https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doly/doly-more-than-a-r... earlier this year (after a much longer than expected wait on Kickstarter)...was good for a bit and had some fun but mostly gathering dust now. Occasionally will come out if friends are over.
Both are expensive e waste, companies come up every 5 years with these "house robots for kids", they're used for about 5 days, I've seen the cycle many times already
Makes sense. Unless you can disassemble/reassemble. I guess selling kits (Meccano, Technics) would be the better approach. I recall countless hours building stuff and my kids love their Magnetiles and everything that lets them build in a free-form.
The household robot business other than vacuums are a classic way to lose your shirt, sadly.

Many, many startups and several megacorps have burned their money. Robots are so fun to make, if you have that spirit in you! But alas they are very, very hard to make valuable outside of manufacturing /warehousing/weapons.

nerds cannot resist despite knowing this full well. "for kids"
I love Battletech. If the IP holders ever get their shit together and have a properly walking Vulture/Mad-Dog, I'm sold.

Bonus points for laser tag capability like those tabletop tanks.

>If the IP holders ever get their shit together

Well they have had a lot of time to get their shit together, and its not even happened a little tiny bit.

But maybe one day they will die? And when the Mormon church inherits the IP they might use it a bit better.

> Well they have had a lot of time to get their shit together, and its not even happened a little tiny bit.

Yeah, they struggle...

Though... the Unity-engine based Shadowrun(s)/Battletech were decent. Mechwarrior 5:Mercs (not Clans) with it's doing-the-heavy-lifting mods is fun.

But that seems more like them half listening to others-with-a-clue than themselves getting their act together. It is frustrating knowing the wealth of stories they have, and yet they offer precious little.