p.enthalabs

Lula wins election after final votes tallied

reuters.com · Read Story HN original

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Deeply unfortunate, but not entirely unexpected. Lula was allowed to do every "electoral crime" they barred Bolsonaro from doing in 2022. They even extended voting time, a move that directly benefiting him, and also ruled illegal back in 2022.

Gotta look on the bright side. Bolsonaro was closer to US interests than I'd like. If the elected right wing senate manages to at least impeach some supreme court justices next year, I'm going to be OK with this.

I submitted the news too and it got flagged:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50237256

Why unfortunate?
> Lula was allowed to do every "electoral crime" they barred Bolsonaro from doing in 2022. They even extended voting time, a move that directly benefiting him, and also ruled illegal back in 2022.
Letting cirixes vote in elections is bad?
Bolsonaro-aligned mayors deliberately blocked busses from running that would take people to the polls in Lula-supporting neighborhoods. Emergency legal decisions allowed voting times to extend as a response to this. By the margin of votes, it wouldn't have mattered.
Busses with a Lula insignia on it, which is an electoral crime.
Ah yeah, the serious serious crime of having stickers on busses...

Just as bad as storming the capitol!

Personally, I don't consider it a serious crime at all, or even a crime.

However, it is an electoral crime to do things like stamp public transport vehicles with a party insignia to "remind" candidates who provides for them. As such, it's not at all surprising that the busses were grounded.

Wow, yeah. Someone should totally find the people responsible and let them know how criminal they were. Super top priority.

Also it's a good thing people were afforded more time to vote in case their buses weren't running.

It would be sad for a Bolsonaro voter to not be counted because some cheeky rapscallion stickered a bus.

Thank goodness both candidates sought extension and it was granted.

I think you're missing the point, while not a serious offense it is still an offense and tampering of the electoral process.
I don't think I'm missing the point at all mate. The point is to insinuate some conspiracy bull cock and I'm calling bull cock.
The point is the busses weren't grounded maliciously in order to deliberately stop people from voting. There is an actual reason why it happened: Lula's supporters slapped Lula stickers onto the buses, which is an electoral crime.
"They even extended voting time, a move that directly benefiting him"

Both candidates supported that decision.

Both sides asked to extend the hours. The court took the action. I don't really know brazillian politics and what happened in the past but thought I'd point that out.
Abstainees were thought to be the biggest source of new votes for Lula in the 2nd round of elections. I think such a move benefited Lula far more than it did Flávio.

It's also inconsistent with the court's own precedent. Extending voting hours was deemed illegal back in 2022. "Everybody had the chance to vote", said Alexandre de Moraes.

After Lula lost in the 1st round, suddenly it became legal again. The irony is not lost on me. That's the pattern with the leftist judges in the courts. The supreme court judge who decided it used to be Lula's own lawyer.

If it was illegal, then why did Bolsonaro ask for it to be done in this election?

If Bolsonaro did not want it done in this election, then why did Bolsonaro ask for it to be done in this election?

Bolsonaro's father asked for an extension last election. Don't remember why. Denied, illegal. "Everybody had the opportunity to vote".

Bolsonaro's son asked for an extension this election due to heavy rains in the south. As far as I can tell, it was also denied.

Lula asks for an extension this election due to busses being grounded because Lula-aligned syndicates slapped Lula insignias on them which is an electoral crime. Lula's former lawyer turned supreme court judge approves it.

It is obvious that the Brazilian institutions, and these judges in particular, wanted Lula to win. They were going to be impeached otherwise.

Both candidates wanted an extension.

Court agreed, they didn't feel everyone had a chance to vote this time. Approved. Legal.

This seems hard for you to wrap your head around for some reason.

Funny how they always agree when Lula wants something.
I guess, humor is subjective after all.
The issue is that the extensions were approved selectively, in specific areas expected to favor Lula and not in other areas (e.g. the ones where bolsonaro wanted an extension). It's a gross misrepresentation to suggest that they both wanted an extension so everything is hunky dori.
How are you posting so fast? I usually get blocked after five in an hour.
Sometimes dang applies a rate limit to accounts. I used to be rate limited as well. I would often get in arguments about stuff such as copyright.
I was just linking it for completeness. My submission was flagged, but this one wasn't. Guidelines don't explain the difference.
They explain why you should refrain from posting about politics here, unless there's an angle that makes it interesting for the HN crowd.
I for one flag everything I see him posting because his extreme positions hurts our country. It is crazy HN doesn't rate-limit how much he can post and people posting technical stuff can post like 4 comments then get blocked.
Please don't share half the context.

Many cities had their mayor cancelling free public transportation and stopping people from going voting. Extending the time is a reaction, not a first action. Furthermore, the ask didn't come just from Lula's party, it came from both candidates [1].

2022 Brazil had the Federal Police Director actively interfering with transportation as well.

[1] - https://www.cnnbrasil.com.br/eleicoes/o-que-diz-o-codigo-ele...

Busses with a Lula insignia on it? That's an electoral crime, and probably why they were stopped from circulating. Just yet another one to the list.

They called for extension back in 2022 too, and it was ruled illegal. "Everybody had the chance to vote", said Alexandre de Moraes.

An hour before sending this comment you read that BOTH sides asked the court for the extension and the COURT has granted it.

I don't think it was the same situation last time.

Not sure what axe you have to grind but it sure looks like you love to present only half of the truth.

I commented that 15 hours ago, and replied within minutes.

I think it's a matter of consistency, not agreement. From my perspective it looks like the court only grants things if Lula wants it granted.

I believe it would have been granted even if Bolsonaro hadn't requested it, and I seriously doubt it would have been granted if only Bolsonaro had requested it.

I'm not even accusing anyone of fraud. This is merely evidence of the court's bias and favoritism.

Accuse me of being wrong if you must, but please don't insinuate I'm a bot. These are my actual thoughts.

Now you are just speculating on what would have happened in hypothetical scenarios. That's not evidence of anything.

Also, all that's achieved by extending polls for two hours across is enabling more people to vote. If that helps one or other candidate to win, it can only be because there are lots of people who want to vote for them.

I'm not trying to substantiate allegations of fraud here. Even if all votes made during the extended time were summed up and added to Flávio's total, it wouldn't help him in the least.

I simply view the act of Lula's former lawyer deciding it with suspicion. To me it's evidence of the court's favor towards him. Nothing more.

As people have already pointed out to you, it can't be evidence even of that because both candidates asked for extended time.
Closer to US interests? What a joke. Better luck next time, I guess.
I don't get it. Are you agreeing with me?
He’s completely aligned with US interests because he is the best definition of the word puppet in the context of geopolitics.
Then we agree. I never really disputed this. I simply considered other matters more important.
This is a very confusing comment. Most on this side don't know the insider informing the Brazilian elections, and we only know the public news

Can you explain?

You are right winger but don't like the Brazilian right wing aligning with the US right wing, but do like the politicians who are aligned with the US right wing?

I'm kinda trying to move past left/right labels. I'll try to explain.

Bolsonaro generally supports privatizing Brazilian state companies and selling them off to foreigners. I don't want that. Especially not to the US and Israel.

Lula on the other hand is better aligned with China, which is also what I want.

Lula and myself are aligned on these two points. So this outcome is not entirely bad for me.

The problem I have with Lula is his party's obnoxious taxation, lack of a real plan for reindustrialization, continuous defense of criminals, and most importantly, his total domination of the supreme court. I voted for the right specifically to see those judges impeached and imprisoned, because I absolutely oppose everything they did in 2022, far more than I ever opposed Lula himself. I'm of the opinion that presidents and elections barely matter anymore, because it's the supreme court that runs the country. It's the Venezuela governance model: president appoints god-like supreme court judges and rules monocratically through them.

The 1st round this month was such an upset not because of Bolsonaro but because of the senate. They are the ones who can impeach supreme court judges, and when Brazil unexpectedly elected a right wing majority in the senate, it struck true fear into the court. This was our chance to completely wipe out that court and forever change the history of this country, like Bukele did for El Salvador.

While in the end the necessary victory didn't materialize, Brazilian senate is still absolute majority right wing now, and they could still impeach those judges. I'm not going to hold out hope for that anymore, but if I see at least one judge bite the dust I'll still call it a major win.

> I'm kinda trying to move past left/right labels.

And yet, somehow 100% of your posts are repeating debunked Brazilian right wing propaganda. How curious.

I have been here for over ten years and have posted over eleven thousand HN comments, only a fraction of which are about politics. If you think I'm some kind of Russian bot account, you couldn't possibly be more wrong.

Also, "debunked" is debatable. I don't accept your portrayal of extremely complex issues as settled, and I also don't accept "official" explanations of anything. I always try to reach my own conclusions and form my own opinions.

I came here to discuss my viewpoints in an attempt to find truth for myself. If you don't want to help with that, then kindly don't reply to me again.

The amount of mental gymnastics people will do to support fascist dictator wannabes is truly insane. For your sake I hope you find reality.
It was extremely amusing. Brazilian election law generally sets 5 p.m. Brasília time as the deadline for closing polls. The judge who made the emergency ruling to pause counting and extend voting hours by 2 hours was Cristiano Zanin Martins - Lula's former personal attorney. The same guy who Lula nominated to the Supreme Federal Court of Brazil in June 2023.
Both candidates agreed to it. Please stop.
Yeah it’s alarming how much HN users are willing to support corruption so long as it’s their preferred candidate doing it. Really is all just tribalism to most posters in this thread so far
How is letting more people vote corruption? I'd say it's corruption whenever anyone can't vote.
Everyone had more than enough time to vote. The courts said that verbatim back in 2022. Why change opinion now?
Last week my mom said we didn't have any orange juice. This week she said we have orange juice. Why the change?
You think a supreme court judge, who was once the candidate's lawyer, ignoring his own court's precedents, to try and help said candidate, is in the same conceptual space as your mom being confused?
Is my mom confused?
His mom isn't confused. They didn't have juice last week, they do now. Somebody went and got some in the mean time: i.e, circumstances changed.

Not to understand this obvious intent, or not to see how the same could apply to the Brazilian election is a sign of either being confused yourself, or... Something worse.

Really, honestly: That post of yours from a couple of years ago that someone linked to in this thread — you should take that advice.

I think I was confused by this mom analogy. From my perspective, it came out of nowhere. Made the wrong inference. I apologize if I offended. I was focused on possible conflicts of interest, there were none in the analogy.

Can we simply disagree without these nasty insinuations of mental illness and bad faith?

She must corrupt. Is the door dash driver her ex personal attorney?
What are the other crimes? Extending time would rarely be bad, and it seems both candidates approved it.
Back in 2022, Lula's party used to be against Bolsonaro's "digital militias". They engaged everybody they had in the superior and supreme courts in order to censor it all. It was disgusting.

This time around, some guy in Lula's party created "Lula's Army", a channel with millions of people in it. Suddenly, it was fine.

They used to cry about "fake news" and call for censorship at every opportunity, and they'd get it because they own the courts. Now they were the ones spreading "fake news" of all sorts. Did they get censored? Nah.

Censorship in Brazil is unconstitutional, by the way. Political censorship is doubly so. It doesn't matter, because they own the supreme court.

There are no laws in Brazil, there is only what the supreme court wants. Whatever they write on a piece of paper becomes law, and police obeys it. They are the true seat of power in this country.

It sounds like they have tried a tactic, discovered that it does not work, and switched to a different tactic which works. Isn't that exactly what they should do?
Absolutely. Do you have nothing to say about the obvious censorship, though? Consistency demands that they too be censored, since Bolsonaro was censored back in 2022. Censoring the right and letting the left run free is precisely what led to January 8th.
Is censorship good or bad?
I don't condone any form of censorship, for any reason. Brazilian constitution is also clear and unambiguous: censorship is unconstitutional, and political censorship doubly so.

The selective application of unconstitutional "fake news" rules, which were made up on the spot by the supreme court judges aligned with the left: is it good or bad?

Lula and his party spread a truly absurd amount of "fake news" between the 1st round and 2nd round of presidential elections. Why are they allowed to do it while the right was censored?

> I don't condone any form of censorship, for any reason.

Then you don't believe Lula should be censored. Lula wasn't censored, so there's no problem here.

You didn't answer my question.

Will you speak out against the persistent censorship efforts against the Bolsonaros?

Do you condone censorship of Bolsonaro?

You're right about Brazil's censorship problem. There's actually another article about how Lula is still trying to use courts to rein Flavio Bolsonaro's social media presence, with evidence like "the random number generator gave Bolsonaro's ballot number" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50229587)

Although fortunately, it didn't seem to be work: it seems Facebook and Twitter largely ignored Brazil's courts and Flavio Bolsonaro had a bigger social media presence despite "Lula's Army".

The effort to impeach the supreme court failed, and Lula's coming for them next year. Censorship is going to get a lot worse.
Lula and Bolsonaro are two sides of the same coin: a stupid tribalism were each side feeds on the hatred for the other.

Both will lead the country to pork-barrel, corruption and government paralysis by debt. Both are "unfortunate".

There are 2 solutions for all Brazilian problems: Guarulhos and Galeão. The rest is just circus.

Yeah, I agree completely. I didn't vote for any of these candidates, I voted to impeach the supreme court.

There is exactly one politician that once upon a time represented me: Dr. Enéas Carneiro. Ironically, his ideas were closest to the Chinese Communist Party. He's dead now.

The left wing has PCO, a real left wing party, and I agree with them on a daily basis. They're shunned by everyone, and were even persecuted by the supreme court along with the right wing.

I'm increasingly resigned to the idea that immigration is the only option by now.

Fascism loses, maybe there is hope for the rest of the world.
"Lula's re-election will strengthen Brazil's ties with Russia, Brazilian Workers Party congressman Reimont Otoni told TASS"

The world is more complex than "fascist" vs "communist"

Are you taking this single congressman's word as fact?
I don't know enough about their available options to know how bad this is.
I get that BRICS is world-domination wise scary to the US, but I don't really think the rest of the world fears that sans the US's warmongering.
Tbh don’t really care which side is right (some of Lula's politics I like and other not). I’m just pointing out the mental gymnastics HN goes through to paint one group as “fascist,” while completely ignoring the grey areas that don’t fit their cleancut worldview.
None of the things you mentioned have anything to do with whether or not a candidate is fascist. No “mental gymnastics” are needed.
Bolsonaro was also friendly towards Russia. Any president will be. Brazil depends on their fertilizers.
So what?! Nobody is saying otherwise. But PT vastly misrepresents how close it is to fascists and dictators. Love them, but hate to publicize them.
I agree with you.
Why is it that this a concern to you but it's not a concern when the US and European powers align themselves with Saudi Arabia and Qatar?
Only if you beat the fascists. Otherwise it gets real black-and-white real fast
Really unexpected.

Polymarket was like 80% Bolsonaro Jr to 20% Lula 7pm, 7:15 it changed to 60% Lula. There were multiple reports in the news websites about it favoring Bolsonaro which itself probably made some people vote for him.

I'm quite happy with the result tho. Let's see how the far right opposition will take this loss. I'm already expecting the worse.

Maybe these prediction markets are less useful than has been claimed.
They are good at some markets but they don’t understand latam and especially Brazilian politics in the least so whatever makes it into the US news drives the market although it is normally wrong
If he has an 80% chance to win that means Polymarket will be "wrong" 20% of the time. And 80% seems fair given he was leading in the polls by a razor thin but consistent margin.
Polymarket isn't binary so you are understating how wrong they were. Polymaket gives outcomes as percentage odds and less than 12 hours ago they had Bolsonaro by 5-to-1.
They resolve as binary. Until they resolve it's a percentage chance of the eventual resolution.
Maybe it's useful for people spending money to present the odds they wish for?
20% happens about 1 in 5 times. I know that's snarky wording but 20% shots come though constantly in daily life.

I think as humans we are really bad at intuition about probabilities, and it being an election only makes it much worse. I don't think anyone is consciously conflating these with poll numbers but percentages of voters are the numbers we see a lot more than prediction markets, and 80% is idunno an 80% chance of getting between 50% and 54% of the vote or something.

It's not a 'prediction market', it's a gambling market. It's far more accurate to say 80% of gamblers were convinced Bolsanaro would win than to say there's an 80% likelihood he would win. It's not measuring likelihood as it's untethered from things that impact the actual results. Obscuring it basic gambling with the word 'prediction' doesn't change the fact that's naked gambling at the end of the day.